Interview by Matilda Elliott.

FMM’s Matilda Elliott had the opportunity to share in an insightful and open chat with Amber Horsburgh. Amber is a music and brand marketing professional who’s spent 13 years working in New York City, Los Angeles, and Melbourne. The former SVP Strategy Downtown Records (NYC), consultant to MTV, YouTube Music and Google Play now runs her own business, Deep Cuts, an education platform that gives independent artists major label marketing strategies. As well as developing budding stars with Deep Cuts, Amber is debuting her own series Sew It Goes. Each episode explores the profound impact clothing has on our sense of self. One original garment, one story. Amber shares more below:

FMM: To get started, I'd love to understand a little bit about your career and how you came to developing Deep Cuts. 

Amber:  I have spent my whole career in the music industry working in New York and LA on all sides of the music business, both on the brand side with big tech entertainment brands like YouTube Music, Google Play and TV, Samsung. Then also on the label side as well, working with labels such as Universal Music, Atlantic, Interscope and Downtown Records, which is an independent record label based out in New York.

My approach to marketing started in the brand world and whenever I was working in the agency, my boss at the time, hired me because he wanted me to impose the strategic rigour of an advertising agency into an independent record label setting where a lot of the times their marketing plans will be the same, whether it was for an artist who was three records deep in their career, or brand new or you know, an artist who is electronic versus psych-rock. It was all the same. So, I came in and approached each artist like it were a brand. The difference between YouTube Music versus Google Play was very different and had a lot of success there with the campaigns and trying to elevate the quality of marketing to music.

I then went out on my own and was consulting with management firms and working with artists directly and then the pandemic hit. I was in LA working with artists like SOFI TUKKER, and Cubsport and Tkay Maidza, and a lot of my clients were Australians who were trying to crack the US market. Covid hit and I found myself in America, headed back to Australia.

In that time, I had built Deep Cuts up as just an industry newsletter because my job at Downtown Records would see me… I was the marketing department which is often the glue that holds all the departments together and it's what’s trying to move everyone in towards the same goal. You try to get radio and PR to work together with the creative and production teams, but then also be the spokesperson for the label and advocates the label to management and artists. What I found was, I would keep having the same conversation. I had my day with back-to-back. Every half hour was blocked out with different meetings and it was digital. I was like, if I just write down all my thoughts and feelings in one place, I didn't have to keep having these conversations. So, I started this industry newsletter called Deep Cuts. It grew really quickly across the industry. I was thinking, maybe I'm just gonna make this a thing.

I turned it into courses in group coaching and it was the most rewarding part of my career to date because now working directly with artists who were largely ignored by the industry, early career artists, super talented. They've either been signed to a label and then decided to go out on their own as independent or they’re people who are just starting out and want to build a team around themselves, or they've, you know, they're with a distributor and they've got funding from distribution, but they don't want to sign to a particular label. There’s a skill set that happens around marketing and promotion that doesn't come into play with the actual creation of the music. That's what I try and teach which is just like, there's this misnomer, which is the cream rise to the top. If the song is good enough, the rest will take care of itself and it's just not the case. It's just what it takes to get music heard and to a fan, is a very different skill set to creating a really, really great song. So what Deep Cuts aims to do, is give artists with killer music the same tool that you would have at a major label, to be able to do the marketing promotion yourselves so that you can get more flexibility to determine what your career path is. I've got clients who wanted to sign to a label, and then they did it all themselves. Then they're like, actually, no, listen, I’ll assemble my own team of people and I'm gonna have ownership and it gives you more roads to give you more options.

FMM: Interesting. So, what specifically led you to go the independent route as opposed to staying within agencies or only focusing on big hitters. What specifically about independent artists do you find most enticing?

Amber: This might sound really weird, but simply, I love music. I think everyone that works in the music business loves music, otherwise, you'd go make a career in accounting. I've always loved music, but what I found when working with independent artists, is because no one gives them any attention. I like that the advice that you can give them can actually really help. Some bands started with me having been just starting out. They had just changed their name and were telling me “We're rebranding and we're really nervous about that.” They've since gone and played the 930 Club which is one of the most iconic venues in DC selling out a 1200 capacity room and they did that all by themselves and ended up on TV. 

It was the tools that I was able to give them got that help play a role in that, but also they were so grateful and such a pleasure to work with the whole way through. Then, you've got other artists who’ve been signed to labels in the past - they're coming at it solo. For them, it's a very confronting process. to help someone and give someone that self-confidence and to hold their hand through that, is very rewarding. Being able to work directly with one person, as opposed to when you're at a label.. You're sitting. You know, you're an SVP of a label, you've got staff in all these different territories to work with. You've got an artist who's got an agent and a manager and a creative director in a hundreds and 1000s of dollars of a budget. You can sit with them and whilst the work you're doing is really awesome and really creative, they don't need you. A lot of my job is getting the shit kicked out of tapered teams across the world, but when you can work with an artist who's making really great music and doesn't get the time of day from anyone, yes, it's really nice to be able to guide them along and give them the confidence to actually put the records out and not let it stay in Dropbox. It really is a good thing to do.

FMM: Oh, that's incredible to further understand. I love that you seem like a very nurturing person and  that you're able to really share your knowledge and wisdom with other people and are delving further into that. You have a series of free workshops coming up. I'd love to understand a little bit more about them, but also could you tell me what demographic you think would benefit most from this type of workshop? 

Amber:  Yeah, so the demographic is, I call them career artists. What I found is people assigned to labels, they've got teams. They've got their people doing their things, the people who are making music for the enjoyment of making music and don't have pressure to build an audience around the hobbyist status. They're fine. There's so many resources online for them. It's that stage of career artists, the budding headliner artists who this is their job, this is their career. They're not going back to another job. They're not going to a 9-5. That's what these these workshops are for. It's people just starting out and you really want to give it a shot, it's people who have, potentially already had a music career before, maybe they will composing or they were doing work in film and television, they maybe were a season musician but they took a break for 10 years and now they're returning to the industry and the whole landscape has changed and the need a refresher. Even parents who are trying to get their managers. They want to make the right decisions to make sure that they're protecting their kids, and not getting the wrong manager or wrong representation around them so young, but they need to figure out what to do. A lot of people like that. 

Then, it's a small independent record label who maybe there's one marketing person who is also playing the role of everybody else. They need to skill up and best represent their artists. I always think about what is going to make a difference. Focusing on the small things so the upcoming ones, we're going to tackle artists branding, tackling Spotify playlist pitching and how to work the algorithm and make the algorithm work for you. What does the singles’ rollout strategy look like as opposed to album format? It’s about tackling those issues

FMM:  Incredible. They're also very intriguing. I love the idea of how the landscape is changing so much that as you said, if someone you know was making music 10 years ago, wanting to jump back in, it's a completely different realm. So getting that, new knowledge and up-to-date insight would be very valuable. 

I'd love to sort of move a little bit away from your career and many hat roles to understand your many clothing roles, specifically the many roles of your jackets. I'd love to understand a little bit more about ‘Sew It Goes’ if you could tell me about the project. 

Amber:  Ok, so Sew It Goes is a video series and it tells a story through one garment at a time. The premise for it was I use creating garments as art therapy. I didn't realise that I was doing it until I had a massive wardrobe with these insane leather jackets that were kind of like these diary entries. The premises of where it all started was, I was in the East Village one day and I went to a beauty store and I saw this jacket I really liked and looked at the price tag. It was like $650 and I was like no hope in hell that I'm gonna spend $650 on an item of clothing I'm for sure gonna spill on and so I was like, maybe I could do something similar. 

I went back home, dug out this jacket that I never wore and just started started taking to it with a paintbrush and studding and stuff and it felt really good. I continued doing that and what I had realised was that I have my own battles with mental health. Every time I have a bit of an episode, or something is happening, I always end up going to these jackets and paint. They've since become these diary entries. Every time I wear them people ask where did you get that jacket from? The project is an attempt to get the jacket out of my wardrobe and into the world by showing the diary entries and really delving into the stories.

I think a lot of the times I can be pretty closed off. I'm a pretty private person. Normally, if you were to put a camera in front of my face and be like “Talk about this really difficult topic,” I'd be like “No, thank you” and joke around about something else. But, to use a jacket or a piece of clothing as a jumping off point to tell the story talking about more serious issues, it's a lot easier. It's like the way that you get kids to describe how they're feeling by giving them a teddy bear to show like where their pain is. It’s very similar to this which is why I can talk about things like sobriety and body image and identity in new motherhood and stuff that like., almost like cancellable opinions, but do it through clothing. It gives you a bit of bravery to talk about it.

FMM: It feel cathartic to hear your stories on how you are able to connect with yourself andf create these masterpieces in the process. I noticed that you said that you know you're more of a private person and this can also be reflected in your career as your role is also very much showcasing other people. Personally, I love how this project is really just all about you and your own relationship with so many different aspects of yourself. 

I'd love to understand a little bit more about your first episode, the motherhood episode. For me, it was a valuable watch. You talked about the identity of a new mum, and how it can be such a consuming thing to so many people. Mums can often just get turned into two-dimensional characters as opposed to the multifaceted individuals as they were seen as prior to becoming a parent. I'd love to understand your view on this a little more.

Amber: Yeah, sure. It's the thing that scared me the most about falling pregnant - the idea that my individual self was gonna go away. I was 33 when I fell pregnant. I was like, 33 years of building interests and hobbies developing things that I like to talk about. Then, all of a sudden you fall pregnant and have a baby, and everyone around you will begin to potentially treat you differently. They'll start to stop inviting you to parties and they're like ‘oh, she's too tired’, or, won't offer you a drink. I don’t drink, but I've seen it happen to friends. People will begin to just start talking to you about things like breastfeeding. 

What I found was last Mother's Day, I was about to pop and I was so scared because all this imagery all over social media was like four generations of women and perfection. I felt like I don't really see myself at all in this world. So, if I don't see myself in this world, what the hell is going to happen to me? The idea of a good woman is one that does not serve us completley. People don't expect that from your partner, and then certainly with my own kid, I would not expect them to do that. I would not want a daughter to do that. I wouldn't want a son to think that women do that. 

For whatever reason, these ideas are still around, so for the first episode of Sew It Goes I explore them further, the idea that success in this new role that you've chosen, looks like complete martyrdom. And that martyrdom makes you really miserable. Yet being miserable makes you a worse mother and the worst person to be around. Why is that the thing that we're being told that we should do? 

That's where the painting comes in. As I started, I made that jacket and I was like, I'm gonna make this jacket as a conversation starter that when I wear it, It doesn’t look like the uniform and that you assume what a mother is wearing, which is like, leggings and a top knot. I chose the different elements on it. I wanted something that was really loud. Something that makes you look like you're coming from a club or a concert which are things that I like to do or adding the Spice Girls on the back which is just ridiculous. It was all like the Britney/Madonna kiss. That people can be like ‘that's weird', and then all of a sudden, I'm not talking about breastfeeding. So that's the idea of where that jacket came from.

FMM: In regard to engaging with new mums, in your view, what would be an ideal way to support them without just you know, asking those basic questions discussed. How do you support without diverting just only to the “mum thing”?

Amber: No one has asked me that. The things that I think helped the most is to ask and not assume anything. Make sure you are not assuming excitement. Like when someone announces that they're pregnant, not all of a sudden squealing. You never know the path to having the baby. For me, I had multiple miscarriages, I had years of fertility treatments, I was on all these drugs that will make me feel wack. When people were really excited, I felt like shit, I was like, “Oh my god, I feel embarrassed.” I just felt really awkward because I just I was scared and nervous for this new adventure. I would say it is important not to assume anyone's emotional state. Just be open when you find out, ask them “How are you feeling?” Have open-ended questions but also, just treat me the same. Tell me about your dating life! Tell me about what you like. Tell me about you. I think just kind of continuing on friendships. 

FMM: Great to learn, so opening up the dialogue, but also opening up your perceptions.

Amber: I always like sharing people's stories too. So rather than giving advice just give it if you're comfortable sharing your own story. Personally, my girlfriends are so open and that's so helpful. So when I'm like, Oh my God, what's this? And they're like, well, this happened to me, and then this is what we did. It makes the whole thing less scary because like, Oh, this is normal, like this weird feeling that I've got that I feel like I couldn't tell anyone. Everyone's got that. I think that that's really helpful.

FMM: Finally, do you have any further statements or anything else you'd like to add in parting wisdom with me and Futuremag Music readers? 

Amber: The first video is a bit of a play on the cliche of motherhood through the generations. I hope what this does is connect with people like me who were terrified of becoming pregnant through fear of losing themselves. You will do your best and be able to remain just as individual as you were before. Motherhood is another part of you, but it is not the only part of you.