CREATIVE CONVERSATIONS 149: CHARLIE PITTMAN ON BIGSOUND, VULNERABILITY, SONGWRITING, AND EARLY LIFE

Interview by Adeline Chai.

It’s been a big year for Sydney-based alt-pop singer-songwriter Charlie Pittman, who released his debut EP, nothing is forever, in June and went on his first-ever headline tour in Australia in July. Futuremag Music had the pleasure of catching up with Charlie in between his performances at BIGSOUND about his love for songwriting, vulnerability in and out of writing sessions, his early life and more!

FMM: I wanted to start this interview by asking you about your debut EP, which you released in June. I read that you worked on it for two-and-a-half years. What was it like to go back to a body of work over and over again throughout those two years?

Charlie: It’s an interesting one. I think normally before then, I was just writing a song, releasing the song, seeing what happened with it, and then I’d do the same thing again. With this EP, I was more intentional about creating a project. For a lot of the songs I have released, I’ll release them and then be like, “Oh, I wish I changed them. I wish I did that.” With these songs, I sat with them and played them live for so long before I even released it [the EP], and I still like them two years later. So, I’m like, “Oh, okay, that's a good sign.”

It is interesting how the songs change, and the meaning of the songs change. When I play them live to people, they go, “Oh, this. I can relate to this in this way.” I think, “Oh, that's amazing.” I didn't think about that when I wrote it, but it's interesting how the song evolves without you as well. I was just super relieved to get it [the EP] out there.

FMM: You’ve done many collaborations since the start of your career. Harry and Sally was actually how I got introduced to your music.

Charlie: Oh, really? Wow!

FMM: Yes! I think with an EP though, as opposed to just a song, and correct me if I'm wrong, I imagine since it's a body of work, the stakes are higher? There are very personal songs like dog, black on yours, too. What was it like for you to involve other people in them?

Charlie: Yeah, definitely. I think the best songs and the best bits of art come from collaboration, whether that's working with a producer, somebody mixing the record, or somebody writing it with you.

The biggest thing I've learned since I started properly doing music was that you just have to be super vulnerable. You can't go into a session with a writer and hold back. You have to let yourself be vulnerable, be embarrassed, and be able to just share everything, which is such a foreign thing. You would never walk up to a stranger at a coffee shop and say, “Hey, this is what's happened to my life.” I think that's the biggest thing about working with people and working with people who can actually create that safe environment.

I do a bunch of writing for other people as well, and when they come in with their stories, it's just about being super open and trying to create the best bit of art. I think that's the biggest thing. When you are writing with someone else, the main aim is to get the best song. There’s no ego involved. So I think, yeah, collaboration is so important. A lot of the time, we usually come into a session with a very clear idea about why I want to write, and then it's just about a person writing with me and facilitating that with me, and then we can build it together. But yeah, I'm super keen on collaborations. I definitely can’t do it all myself.

FMM: That's great. I always think about how it's one thing to tell someone something vulnerably, but when you’re an artist, it’s another thing to write, and record that story as well to share with everyone else.

Charlie: 100%. It can be super vulnerable. I think even if you're in a room with someone and you don't sing a lyric; you're just there for them in the room and you create enough space; it's almost as important as being a good writer and being a good lyricist. I think it’s important to create that environment for people to make art, be vulnerable, and not be scared to suggest another lyric or anything like that, really.

FMM: I want to know more about your songwriting process because I know it's really important to you as an artist. You’ve said in previous interviews that you would labour on one word for one or two hours. My first question is, is there a song or an album that you wish you had written? My second question is, what’s your favourite lyric that you’ve ever written?

Charlie: That's a great question. I think I wish I had written a song called Stop This Train by John Mayer. I just think it's seemingly so simple but the lyrics are so vulnerable, and that song has stuck with me for years and years. I would’ve loved to have written that. With the guitar part and the melody, the lyrics, it’s just a great song.

My favourite lyric that I’ve written…it changes for me, a lot. Yeah, the lyrics mean so many different things. I think maybe the one in dog, black, which is, “Some days you’re dying, some days you’re around.” I think it's such a simple lyric. I don’t think it says anything too fancy because I'm not really trying to cover anything in metaphors or be super clever with it. It literally is just saying, some days, you know you're thinking about death, you're thinking about how life is so fragile, and some days it's just like, everything's fine. Whether you're suffering or you're with someone who you know is going to pass or whether you think about your own life, a lot of people think, “Oh my God, when am I gonna die?” You’ve got these crazy thoughts, but then often you’re just overwhelmed.

FMM: Sometimes it really is just little bouts of anxiety that pass eventually.

Charlie: That's it. Everyone goes through it. Everyone thinks, “Oh my God, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow or die on this plane” and the next day you don’t think about it [laughs].

FMM: Speaking of dying on planes, I listened to your EP on the plane when there was turbulence…well, I didn’t put it on because of turbulence, but it was a great coincidence.

Charlie: Oh, my God. [laughs]

FMM: Yeah, but I actually thought, if this were the last thing I ever listened to, I wouldn’t be mad, you know? It’s really good.

Charlie: Oh, wow. That’s so sweet. Thank you so much.

FMM: I do want to chat about your headline tour though, because I think it’s such a massive feat. Do you have any standout moments from that?

Charlie: I think, the first show I did in Sydney. That was my first-ever headline show in Australia as a whole.

I think we checked tickets a few days before, and we sold 50 or 60, which I was grateful for, but I was like, “Oh, this room fits 250, it's gonna look silly.”

By the end of the night or by the day we actually did the gig, it was pretty much packed out. Just seeing everyone there, I was like, “Wow, this feels crazy.” But also, just being able to go to cities like Brisbane, I’ve never been to Brisbane before, and seeing that there were people there for my music was amazing. People had travelled from Adelaide to Melbourne or all the way from Sydney to Brisbane because they couldn’t come to the Sydney show. I was super grateful that I have people who want to listen to my music and it’s not just me and my band playing for no one. Yeah, that's the biggest highlight of it.

FMM: You were born in Sydney and then raised in a place called Holbrook in England, right? I was trying to look it up on Google Maps to see how similar or different it is to Sydney.

Charlie: So different. It’s like a little village. There’s probably 100 people or 200 people who live there and so you have your shop, and unless you drive, you can’t go anywhere. The nearest town is a 50-minute drive away. It was very peaceful growing up; we lived in the British countryside. I probably had a lot of time to myself, but I was also super involved in sports. I was doing sports stuff every day after school, keeping busy.

FMM: I read that you’re really into football as well!

Charlie: Yeah! My team’s Ipswich Town. We just got promoted to the Premier League and it’s so annoying though, because when I was watching them as a kid, they were so bad. Now, as soon as I’ve moved to Australia, they’re in the top league. The first time in 20 years!

FMM: But, now you get to say that you’ve been here from the start!

Charlie: That’s it. Exactly. But now I have to watch the games at 2am if I want to watch them!

FMM: Oh, that is annoying. Going off on a tangent a bit, you’ve been open about going to therapy. I can only speak for myself, but I found that it opened me up in some ways but closed me up in others. I’m curious if therapy has influenced how you approach songwriting?

Charlie: Yeah, it’s interesting. I always have my therapy as well as having therapy from doing my [songwriting] sessions. When I’m in session, you talk about things. It’s kind of what you do when you’re in therapy as well. It’s super therapeutic to write about something that’s on your chest because if it weren’t in a session, I probably wouldn’t talk about it too much. I'm not amazing with just talking to a mate about how I'm feeling. I mean, I should be better at it at this point but it’s really hard. So when you’re with a stranger, I think sometimes it’s a bit easier and that’s the relationship you get when you're in a therapy session; you are talking to someone who doesn't know you. They're going to give you advice and stuff, and they can help you process your feelings. But, you know, at the end of the day…I don’t know. I feel less vulnerable. I feel like I can just talk and talk and talk. I don’t feel judged or anything.

I don’t know if it’s changed me as a writer, but it’s probably made me more open with it, and more honest as well.

I think in therapy, you can’t censor yourself. The moment you start bending the truth and not being fully open, it’s like, why are you even there then? You’re not going to be able to fully open yourself up. I think it’s the same with writing. If you’re writing and you’re kind of like, “Oh, I’ll tell half the truth,” well, the song is then going to be half as good. If you can’t say exactly how you feel, I feel like the listeners are pretty clever in sensing that. It’s more interesting, the more real it is.

FMM: That’s really true. I do want to ask you about the short film you made for your EP. Have you dabbled in acting before that?

Charlie: I haven’t told many people this, but my degree is in acting. I studied to be an actor originally so I wanted to include that in the music video stuff and make it a cohesive piece. In a dream world, for the next project, there would hopefully be a script within the film so it feels like a proper short film.  

But yeah, I loved having control and creative direction over how the film looked. With the director, Zoe, I helped to shape this narrative, although it was abstract. I love acting and I’d love to be able to show a different side to me as a performer as well. If it connects back to the music, then that’s great.

FMM: I adore the film’s concept because it first pans to a house in the suburbs and that’s the title of the first track on your record. When the front door opens, another song plays.

Charlie: 100%! I’d love to have projects where a song flows seamlessly into the next song. With the albums I love, whether it’d just be an album of 10 songs and two of the songs are linked or there’s a motif that comes back round again, I think that stuff is really interesting.

FMM: Like little easter eggs!

Charlie: That’s it. That’s definitely something I’m going to try and weave into my future work.

FMM: I’m curious to know, you’ve mentioned how being able to play more live shows has influenced your music in a way. How do you want people to feel when they’re at one of your shows?

Charlie: I want people to be taken on a massive emotional journey, if possible. I think when I first wrote music, it was in a very singer-songwriter style, similar to Harry and Sally and Pam and Jim. They were very much songs that were these still moments, but I want my set to be mostly high-energy stuff that makes me feel alive. You then also have those moments where it’s super vulnerable, and you just kind of stand there and feel the things that I'm singing or whatever you want to feel really.

But for me, the high-energy stuff is the most fun stuff to do, and I feel like that's the energy that's so easy to radiate and get back from fans as well. So, yeah, I'd love to take them on the journey.

FMM: I’m excited for your show tonight, but I'm really nervous about hearing dog, black.

Charlie: Really? [laughs]. It’s one of my favourites to play, but yeah, sometimes I’m singing it, and then you see people in the front row crying and bawling their eyes out and it’s like, “Wow. Oh, my God.” But I mean, it’s super fun.

FMM: If there were three songs that you could give people to listen to, in order, while being introduced to you as an artist, what would they be?

Charlie: I'd say house in the suburbs would be number one. I feel like it just encompasses the newer sound that I’m making. If you listen to that song, you kind of get a vibe of what the whole EP would be like, and then the second song would be dog black, because I think it's the most important song to me personally. I feel like the more personal the song is, the more the listener can relate to it, in a way, as weird as that sounds. And then the third song would probably be, maybe, paris syndrome. It’s one of the songs that I’m always super proud of. I think you get a bit of a different vibe from house in the suburbs and dog, black. So yeah, those would be my three picks.

FMM: You’ve explained previously that dog, black is about your dad. Would it be alright to chat about that for a bit?

Charlie: Absolutely.

FMM: How’s your relationship with grief in this present moment?

Charlie: I think before, I was kind of grieving whilst he was ill, which is the hardest thing because when he eventually died, it was a weird thing where I didn’t really feel a lot for a while. It took me a while to process it.

Then I was over in Australia, going back and forth, but when I finally moved here, I was like, “Oh, okay. I'm doing all the things that he said I could do.” Before, when he was alive, I was really struggling, to be honest. I was working three jobs just to pay rent and do music. It [Music] was more of a hobby -- I couldn't do it full time because I couldn't afford to. So yeah, it's a weird one. I feel like grief, it just kind of hits you when you least expect it. It's hard to describe as well.

I just feel like you have to let yourself feel those moments when they do hit you. It can be difficult, especially being in a country where I didn’t spend a lot of time with my dad in, so I don’t really have those places that remind me of him as much. It’s always tough when I go back to the UK. But yeah, I’m still learning. It’s only been a year and a half so I’m just growing and living with it, really.

FMM: It was so beautiful when you went on The Voice to honour your Australian heritage, which comes from your dad. You were amazing.

Charlie: Thank you. It was really cathartic being in Australia so soon after he passed really and honouring him in a way.

FMM: The phrase nothing is forever is the title of your EP. It’s concise, but impactful and it applies to so many different areas in life. I was wondering if you have a simple, but short mantra for yourself?

Charlie: I don’t, but my dad did. I remember googling my dad and seeing something he wrote – he worked as an accountant – that was like, “Just keep it simple.” Which I definitely don’t. So maybe I should try more. I definitely try to overcomplicate things and I’m such a perfectionist, but I don’t know, keep it simple and be nice, maybe? That’s a big one. I feel like that’s a huge thing. If you’re going to be not very nice, then people aren’t going to want to work with you, and also just, what a miserable life if you’re a horrible person [laughs]. Be nice to people!

FMM: Yeah, that’s gospel. You’ve been on an incredible journey as an artist. What’s your vision for right now and the future?

Charlie: I just went to America for three weeks. In Nashville and in LA, I wrote about 15 songs, I’ve already got another 50 songs unreleased. So it's just a case of picking the next songs, really, and then trying to release them as soon as possible.

I’m super happy about a bunch of it so that is the thing. There are definitely songs that I've written that are bad songs, but I think the more you write, the better you get. So the hardest thing now is choosing the songs because I love a lot of them. It’s tricky, but hopefully, I'll find the songs that create a narrative and fit in the same world. It's hard because you don't want to pick two songs about the same thing in the same EP. So yeah, it's just a case of choosing the songs, recording them, and getting them out as soon as possible.

FMM: Amazing! We can’t wait. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Charlie: Not really, just come see the live show! Playing live, there’s nothing like it. If I’m in your city, come see me! [laughs]